synchronizes your business expenses. just shoot your business card receipts and they're automatically matched up with the charges on your online statement. i'm john kaplan, and i'm a member of a synchronized world. this is what membership is. this is what membership does. if we say everyone will get paid when the shutdown is over, does that mean the shutdown is closer to being over? maybe it is all the caffeine we have been drinking, but at the start of this sunday morning, we find ourselves trying to read the tea leaves. yesterday brought a small bit of good news in the federal shutdown fight. but is it good enough? and does it do anything to change the congressional math that got us in this mess in first place? also, the schoolhouse rock guys might not be around anymore to help us understand exactly what's going on behind the scenes, but the republicans in the house, i'm going to try to explain it all with one story

from one day three years ago. we'll get to that later in the show. and it was this time last year that the presidential race suddenly got a lot closer after barack obama laid an egg in first presidential debate, and mitt romney had everyone talking about big bird. remember that? well, this weekend also mark a milestone anniversary for our pick of the best debate moment of all time, ever. and i am adamant about this and i think you might agree. we'll show it to you later in the show. but first, six days of a shuttered federal government has given way to an active bipartisanship, a unanimous act of bipartisanship, the vote was 407-0 in the house yesterday. and that issue was the federal employee retroactive pay fairness act. to translate, says more than 1 million federal workers who have been staying home without pay since the government closed down should be paid anyway. after all, they didn't ask for the time off, they're just the victims of a political stalemate. sounds like a perfectly fair and reasonable thing to do. sounds like the right thing to do. but it might actually present a bit of a trap for democrats in

the senate, where the bill now goes. take a listen. this is how harry reid talked about it on the senate floor yesterday. >> and now we're saying to the federal employees we're going to pay you when it is all over with, but right now you stay home. you thousand mathematicians, you ph.d.s, 2400 computer scientists working for the national security agency, stay home, watch tv, play chess, whatever you want to do, and we won't let you work, but look ahead, you're going to get paid. so right now, the absurdity of this -- we heard today that number of federal employees are applying for unemployment benefits. so it is really cruel to tell workers they'll receive back pay once the government opens and then refuse to open the government. mr. president, let's open the government. >> let's be clear, there is every indication harry reid will put the house bill to pay for workers on the floor, that the bill will pass easily and

president obama who said he wants the furloughed workers to get paid, he will then sign it. reid doesn't exactly seem enthusiastic about it and there say reason for that. this is forcing him, also forcing democrats to make an exception to what has been their posture since the government shutdown, to alter very slightly what they believe is a strong bargaining position, their best chance to end the shutdown without giving ground to the gop. the bill to pay furloughed workers is an example of a strategy that house republicans have stumbled on. the piecemeal strategy. the idea that they can pick out small popular pieces of the government, shame democrats into funding them, all while leaving the rest of the government closed down. the effect, if they succeed, would be to lessen the political impact of the shutdown and to remove some of the pressure on republicans to give up and to extend maybe significantly the bulk of the time -- the bulk of the government -- the time that the bulk of the government is closed for. this is probably just -- excuse me, this is probably why just as they were voting with the gop on paying furloughed workers, house democrats yesterday released a

letter that was signed by all but five of their members demanding that republicans put a simple, clean bill to fund all of the government on the floor. harry reid made the same demand on the senate floor yesterday. so did president obama in his weekly address. >> the american people don't get to demand ransom in exchange for doing their job. neither does congress. they don't get to hold our democracy or our economy hostage over a settled law. they don't get to kick a child out of head start if they don't agree to take parents health insurance away. that's not how democracy is supposed to work. that's why i won't pay a ransom in exchange for reopening the government. >> the democrats think this is a winning posture, the best way to maximize pressure on republicans. the polling so far is encouraging them. nearly three-quarters of americans don't like the shutdown and more blame republicans than president obama and the democrats. the democratic hunch is that it is the impact of a full shutdown sinks in, republican unity will

disintegrate until there is no choice but to post that clean bill. there is one fresh sign of that disintegrating unity, democrats are counting on. the house met yesterday, a tea party republican from florida, dennis ross, sounded like he was ready to cut his losses, saying, quote, republicans have to realize how many significant gains we made over the last three years. we can't lose all that when there is no connection now between the shutdown and the funding of obama care. i think now it is a lot about pride. it is going to take a lot more republicans thinking and talking like dennis ross for this to all end on the democrats' terms. the house and the senate will be back in session tomorrow when the shutdown will turn one week old. well, the next seven days produced the breakthrough or the breakup that hasn't materialized yet? here to talk about that, we have frankie rudis, of the atlantic, former congressman tom davis, republican of virginia, dave weigel, political reporter for slate, and wanda summers, a

reporter at politico. let me do that. i've been meaning to cough for the last two minutes. let's talk about where we are now. we'll we'll start with you, wanda, another piece of news yesterday, we did not get into the intro, the department of defense yesterday said it is going to recall basically 350,000 civilian workers who had been furloughed, the department of defense is now saying they're coming back to work. the shutdown is basically over for them. can you talk about a little bit about what was behind that decision what that means? >> so defense secretary chuck hagel's decision to bring back the workers is rooted in the bill you saw president obama sign into law about a week ago, just hours before the shutdown took effect. the department of justice and the department of defense's lawyers figured out that the bill gave enough flexibility to bring certain workers back, certain people who work in commissaries, have essential functions to the department of defense's working. that's bringing back roughly half of the workforce that has been furloughed. so it takes a big chunk out of the shutdown.

ha very interesting, republicans said this has been politicized, if these workers could be called back now, why were they ever sent home in the first place? so it will be very interesting to see what the appetite is on capitol hill for that argument, how that plays out in the next couple of days. >> dave, pick up on that point. republicans were putting a lot of pressure on the department of defense to bring workers back. now they're coming bae ing back. 350,000 furloughed workers will be back on the job. you had the bill yesterday that probably be signed, that is going to pay all of the workers -- other government workers who are off right now. you had last week the pay for military -- for the troops, that went through, that was signed. is the effect of all of this, everything that we're seeing last week on that front, does that lessen any of the pressure on republicans, does that allow them to extend this fight a little bit, does it ease the political pressure on them a little bit. >> marginally it does. not many of the republicans in this strategy right now in congress now remember 1995, and

remember that the real pain started to come in week two and week three of that shutdown when the story stopped being about -- remember, they passed by unanimous consent something to keep a lot of what we just talked about open, keep them funded. once things that republicans don't want to fund started getting in the news like the epa not being able to inspect, the fda, the hud -- elements of the government that they don't want to pass, it is more complicated. i don't think they won themselves much positive media coverage. i'm in the media and i can cover it if i want to, but if you look at the papers back home, they haven't given the house a ton of credit. they cover it what it is, the house can't give anything, but marginally this week, i don't think in the long-term they're ready for other functions of the government to be unfunded. >> and, tom, you know a lot of the players here on the republican side in the house who are sort of trying to figure out -- i think we're watching

them before our eyes try to figure out what their strategy is. doesn't seem like they're executing something they come up with behind closed doors. you see dennis ross, a tea party republican from florida breaking away saying maybe it is time to cut our losses, do you have a sense of what the endgame is here for republicans in the house, what they'll end up doing this week? >> they have to mold this into the debt ceiling. why open it up and start renegotiations on the debt ceiling? there will be negotiations. american public doesn't want to seat debt ceiling raised willie nilly. they don't understand how it works but they recognize they're spending too much and there has to be some concessions there. >> you say it has to be now, it has to be reopening the government and raising the debt ceiling, they have to be one? >> i think it makes all the sense in the world. it allows them to change the narrative a little bit. this takes the preure off to their republicans who represent tide water in northern virginia, those areas, the employees know they'll get paid, takes a lot of pressure off them, i get paid on time, but will get paid.

putting pentagon workers back. that's half the problem. half the federal employees in that area. it takes some pressure off republicans. and congress in general to get this settled by doing this piece. >> you're talking about rolling that into one thing that would address both of those issues. what realistically is it that republicans could ask for that -- we have the whole thing, let's delay obama care by -- not going to happen. what realistically do you think republicans could ask for and would be acceptable to the republican party based on what boehner could get away with? >> they were never going to delay obama care. this is more symbolic than anything else. i think they're taking what they wanted all along is to get into entitlement spending and see if we can do chain cpi or something like that, and they would like -- some of them would like to get the sequester off. some kind of a deal where they get together and can move forward over the next year. >> what is your sense on the democratic side, first of all, just that idea of rolling together, reopening the government and the debt ceiling. do you sense from democrats they

think that's where it is going to end up too? >> absolutely. i think it already occurred that's where this is going. we're in for a protracted shutdown and the negotiation is already about the conversations -- already about the debt ceiling because the republicans have lost on defunding obama care. you know, it is going forward, we're going to be seeing republicans making a different enrolling series of demands. this makes it very difficult for democrats, because republican demands keep shifting. and the democrats are basically just taking the position, look, we're having the same position as we had on the shutdown, which is no negotiation. >> right. and when tom raises the idea, i heard -- i've seen some reporting about this idea of a grand bargain or grand bargain-like thing, being back on the table. my reaction is this is the thing that's been elusive for years, right? this is -- they couldn't come up with that in 2011.

got the sequester, couldn't come up with a grand bargain. and now this is back on the table and resolved before october 17th. >> i think you talk about a grand bargain, you talk about keeping the lights on. this isn't about any global solution. >> you start talking about chain cpi, these are elements the republicans were looking for in the grand bargain. they would be asking for a lot on their end and i'm trying to imagine the two parties coming together on that. >> you get some republicans on that, you get the medical device tax, you've got some things you can tack on back and forth. at least you get some discussion. there have been no discussions in the last six months. you kwiind of wonder we elect adults and they don't talk to each area and in the end they still don't talk to each other. >> it seems somewhat absurd to threaten the health of the international economy over the repeal of a bill that neither party is particularly interested in. you can delink these things and have this conversation in a rational manner. i mean, social security and

medicare, these are long-term programs, long-term problems in terms of how do we fund them, and to have all that rolled into this crisis environment, where the negotiation is under the gun, it just seems like a recipe for -- >> anything gets done is under a crisis environment in this town f you watched this over the last decade, you get from crisis to crisis and that gets people to move off their comfort positions. >> you can begin the crisis in a stronger position, i think, what -- republicans effectively did by making this about obama care, they knew democrats would never give in on was for -- move the conversation away from entitlements where they had obama on the record in favor of various deals at the end of 2012 during 2011, when they come back and talk about chain cpi, talk about social security, medicare spending, as they want to, and ryan hinted at this, they will have done so in an environment of a month of democrats holding strong, voting them down, going on the record, that they're not going to support that. we're further from a grand bargain because they started

negotiation here. i'm not sure what they move closer to. if you want to bring up social security and medicare, you should bring -- you can bring that up first. you know you can bring barack obama to account because he said he's for chain cpi. and when they do bring it up, it is going to be the context of, well, we lost on everything. do you mind if you go back to this deal? >> and the bet that democrats are making here, and we had congressman jerry nather from new york on. is your belief that you can just -- you'll hold out, say, the job of the republicans is tries the debt ceiling, the job of the republicans is to reopen the government and the pressure will ultimately mount on republicans and they'll have to give in and just do that without any strings attached. he said, yes, that's the strategy. do you see it possibly working out that way. >> i'm hearing the same thing from a lot of members as they're approaching this. i heard the idea floated that the idea of rolling this into a grand bargain gives them some political cover of voting for things.

>> they told the base they can repeal obama care and not just cut social security and medicare. the base will be happy if they can get a repeal. they already made them so angry over obama care. a lot of guys you talk who go on the record bashing ted cruz, that's what they're irritated about. they thought there was a better deal in the long-term for republicans that they can't sell to the base anymore because they were told, yeah, believe ted cruz, believe mike lee, we can repeal obama care. >> the other question i have is so we mentioned dennis rossa who sounds like he maybe had enough of this. the other end is ted yoho, another republican congressman, talking about the prospect of a debt default. he said it would bring stability to the world markets. the default would, not raising the debt ceiling, but the default would. i'm wondering, within the republican ranks, tom, is there -- it sounds like last week john boehner was sending signals that, hey, i get it, we have to raise the debt ceiling.

how many republicans don't share that basic view, though? >> cruz just messed this whole thing up for the republicans in terms of their strategy. now they have overrepresented to their base what they can get, they have not managed news expectations, tough to put back together. i think the speaker would like to put a clean debt ceiling on the floor of the house, see it voted down by republicans and democrats and come back with something that has some conditions on it and negotiate from there. that would have been negotiating from a position of strength. now it looks a little more desperate to some people. but there will be conditions. if you think you're going to get a clean debt ceiling out of this and say you win, that's not the way it works. but they have to try to make this a win-win. that's the only way this thing gets resolved. >> we'll talk to a democratic member of congress down there for the vote yesterday. and he'll join us at this table when we come back. not anymore. what? my silverware isn't good enough for you? have -- have you seen it? yes, i have seen it, and it looks -- you gotta look better. ladies, breathe. cascade kitchen counselor here.

it's not your silverware. it's likely your detergent. see, over time, cascade platinum's triple cleaning formula delivers brilliant shine finish gel can't beat. it even helps keep your dishwasher sparkling. find something, mother? no. [ counselor ] cascade platinum is cascade's best. your husband left his cell phone on. and you're not necessarily proud of that. but tonight, he made the pizza. ...with johnsonville italian sausage. the premium cuts of pork and perfect blend of herbs and spices gave every bite even more flavor. and everyone loved it. and you're definitely proud of that. johnsonville. served with pride since 1945. when ouwe got a subaru.s born, it's where she said her first word. (little girl) no! saw her first day of school. (little girl) bye bye! made a best friend forever.

the back seat of my subaru is where she grew up. what? (announcer) the two-thousand-fourteen subaru forester. (girl) what? (announcer) built to be there for your family. love. it's what makes a subaru, a subaru. see who does good work and compare costs. it doesn't usually work that way with health care. but with unitedhealthcare, i get information on quality rated doctors, treatment options and estimates for how much i'll pay. that helps me, and my guys, make better decisions. i don't like guesses with my business, and definitely not with our health. innovations that work for you. that's health in numbers. unitedhealthcare.

this shutdown has been brought about by the president's unwillingness to sit down and talk with members of congress on the hill. this administration has been almost absent when it comes to discussions and working out our differences and we're going to stay focused on trying to ease the pain of this shutdown while we continue to ask both the president and the senate majority leader to sit down and talk. >> as eric cantor, the second ranking republican in the house yesterday, after the votes we were talking about. we're joined now at the table by keen jeffries. we had tom davies sitting in your seat in the last segment. he was saying if the democrats think at the end of the day there is just going to be -- the debt ceiling is just going to be raised, and the government will be reopened and not some kind of concessions on the democratic side, they're wrong. what do you say to that?

>> it is important to understand i think that the democrats have been ready to talk since the early spring. as part of the regular budgetary process. what is supposed to have occurred in the congress, the house passed the budget in march, the senate passed the budget shortly there after. the next step in the process is for both sides to appoint members of a conference committee to sit down together, try and find common ground and work out the differences. since the early spring, the republicans have refused to appoint members of a conference committee. so essentially for the last six or seven months, the republicans have been the ones who have declined steadfastly to negotiate. so then we arrive at a point in time where we have to pass a continuing resolution in order to keep the government open. and what the democrats have said as well as the president is clearly we're not going to govern as a result of your extortion demands. they sent over a series of ransom notes that were all designed to defund, delay or destroy the affordable care act, which was clearly the law of the

land. once we reopen the government, and move toward a situation where we confront the debt ceiling, and hopefully lift the debt ceiling to avoid a default, then i think we'll be back in a situation where we can discuss the future of the american economy and how to best move forward. >> so the position is, you seem to be articulating there, is raise the debt ceiling, reopen the government, and talk about anything, but there should be no conditions on those first two? >> also important to note that democrats have already agreed to compromise in a meaningful way as it relates to keeping the government open at a certain funding level. >> you accept the sequester level of spending, much lower level of spending. is there a sense, do you have a sense, a sense among democrats in washington there is a bigger principle at stake here in terms of maybe president obama in 2011 when we walked right up to the debt ceiling deadline made a mistake in having negotiations with republicans and in setting a precedent that when the debt ceiling comes up this is something you can bargain over,

and this is now a moment when that has to be corrected, when that precedent has to be taken off the books, is that part of what is motivating democrats here? >> from my perspective, i think there is a bigger perspective or principle at stake. there are three ways in which you can change law. one, through the legislative process, the democrats were successful in 2010 in passing affordable care act by duly elected congress. and also change law through the court system when something has been declared unconstitutional in this particular incidence, 2012, the affordable care act was declared constitutional and the opinion written by chief justice john roberts, bush nominee. and then you can change things as a result of the election process. that also occurred in 2012 when the president was re-elected in the electoral college landslide. there has to be a principle that threatening a shutdown or threatening the default on our debt and plunging the world back into a recession is not an acceptable form of negotiating. >> how do you think this is

going to -- this is all going to end? i understand what the democratic position is on this. we also have the reality we're entering the second week of the shutdown and a lot of republicans, members of the house who come from -- safe republican districts, don't have to worry about general elections, when we get close, if we start getting close to that debt default deadline, it is one thing to have the principle of, you know, we shouldn't be negotiating over this, another to say, we're staring at a default here, we can't have that happen either. how do you expect this is going to end? >> i don't think we're going to confront a default. the forces within the republican party and wall street, finance community based, that understand the implications of defaulting on our debt. and john boehner as you indicated earlier has sent the signals that he understands the catastrophic consequences that will be brought about if we were to default on our debt. i do think that reasonable minds will prevail the closer we get to that october 17th deadline, and hopefully moving forward

from that point, we can then sit down at the table through the regular process and negotiate items related to our future. >> i think the thing with the -- we have to -- this is being driven by the small group of republicans within the house and people like ted yoho and michele bachmann would win fewer votes than anthony weiner if they ran in new york city. they could not even win state elections, could not win the iowa straw poll in some instances. and i mean, the iowa caucuses and it just -- it is a group of people who i think in the end will find themselves a little bit isolated as republican donors and the business lobby comes on board and said, look, we're getting down to the wire here. this is not good for our candidates who are running at the state level, the governors aren't very happy with the strategy. it is terrible for democrat -- i mean for republicans long term in terms of presidential

prospects. and i think there will be a certain amount of pressure coming to bear on the more reasonable members of the republican party. >> congressman jeffries mentioned this, is that something in your reporting you're picking up on, the external pressure, the business community, is that real right now? >> it is very weak. the business community still has not learned how to lobby republicans in a way that forces them away from the conservative base. we saw it with multiple debt negotiations in 2011. saw it in 2012. they spend money on lobbyists. fix the debt that group could raise 30 million odd dollars and get famous spokes people and they don't know how to bend the ear of republicans who make the difference. i talked to the moderates on thursday who were on record saying they were for clean cr. scott ridgell who represents norfolk -- not norfolk and tide water, part of the government contractor utopia hurt by the shutdown, he was saying there is a lot of momentum on the guys who want to say no and he wasn't going to buck from the party until then.

so you see whip counts where there are 22 republicans ready to break or have pressure put on them by the financial industry, and they're not breaking because that's not as effective as heritage action telling people to call their offices. >> and very quickly, before we go, wayi want to ask, let's say get through the shutdown and the debt ceiling, all the deals i'm seeing talk about december 15th, fund the government through december 15th. are we about to go through this again in two months when this is all over? >> i certainly hope not. the senate democratic perspective is we should fund the government through november 15th, place us even closer in the -- >> do it in a month. >> i do think that, you know, at the end of the day, reasonable minds will prevail, hopefully, in the house republican caucus. initially peter king was the only one who had sort of come out and said this is madness. now we're up to over 20 republicans. we all have gone back to our districts this weekend.

hopefully we're hearing an earful from the american public about getting our acts together, go down to congress and do the work for the american people. >> only been three years. but do you remember christine o'donnell, she told everyone in a tv ad out of apparent necessity that she is not a witch. she's not a witch, but she's part of a -- a crucial part of what is understanding happening on capitol hill. i'll explain that next. ♪ ♪ ♪ [ male announcer ] build anything with the new toyota tundra. toyota. let's go places.

and zero heartburn is awesome. just like zero cutlery. and you can't beat zero. [ male announcer ] prilosec otc is the number one doctor recommended frequent heartburn medicine for 8 straight years. one pill each morning. 24 hours. zero heartburn.

...amelia... neil and buzz: for teaching us that you can't create the future... by clinging to the past. and with that: you're history. instead of looking behind... delta is looking beyond. 80 thousand of us investing billions... in everything from the best experiences below... to the finest comforts above. we're not simply saluting history... we're making it. (coffee be♪ng poured into a cup.) save your coffee from the artificial stuff. switch to truvia. great tasting, zero-calorie sweetness from the stevia leaf.

try to imagine the world of presidential campaigning before the internet. no twitter feeds for candidates to promote their messages no facebook pages to corral friends, no e-mail lists, and no simple easy to find website for any person who for whatever reason might be inspired to donate money. that was the world the democratic candidates for president in 1992 were living in. raising money was harder back then. when they gathered for their first nationally televised debate, one of them, then former and now current california governor jerry brown had what

was then a revolutionary idea for how to attract small dollar donors. >> we have an 800 number. we asked people, if you want to join it, you -- wait a minute, don't censor. this is first amendment. i'm a presidential candidate. and let the people -- these airwaves -- these airwaves belong to the people. let them judge whether it is appropriate or not -- >> that's true, but -- >> let them join this campaign through the number 1-800-426-1112. if you want to join, call us. if you think it is inappropriate, you make that judgment. but that is not for a media outlet to censor in a debate. >> the 1-800 number, jerry brown survived that reprimand and while he didn't go on to win the democratic nomination, he did raise a lot of money through that fun number. he flogged it in every debate, every speech, every television appearance and made it famous.

1-800-426-1112 became a cultural sensation. no presidential candidate had done this before and his opponents were kicking themselves for not thinking about it on their own. here is the kicker. here is why i'm talking about this. this week, 21 years later, the san francisco chronicle decided to call that hot line and it still works. it goes to his political office in california. a spokesman told the paper about one person a day still calls it. i wonder who that one person might be. mine was earned in djibouti, africa. 2004. vietnam in 1972. [ all ] fort benning, georgia in 1999. [ male announcer ] usaa auto insurance is often handed down from generation to generation. because it offers a superior level of protection and because usaa's commitment to serve military members, veterans, and their families is without equal. begin your legacy, get an auto insurance quote. usaa. we know what it means to serve.

getting the right nutrition isn't always easy. first, i want a way to help minimize my blood sugar spikes. then, a way to support heart health. ♪ and let's not forget immune support. ♪ but now i have new glucerna advance with three benefits in one. including carbsteady ultra to help minimize blood sugar spikes. it's the best from glucerna. [ male announcer ] new glucerna advance. from the brand doctors recommend most. advancing nutrition for diabetes.

♪ i see you made yourself breakfast. how'd you know? ♪ make my mark i wawith pride.ork.w? create moments of value. build character through quality. and earn the right to be called a classic. the lands' end no iron dress shirt. starting at 49 dollars. when you're living through momentous events if real time, it can be really hard to predict or to imagine how history will end up remembering them. when harry truman left office in 1952, the headlines were about cronyism and corruption, hopeless stalemate in korea, president who lost the faith of the people. and the public that was happy to see him heading back to missouri. no one back then would have guessed that all these years later history would end up focusing not on any of that, but on truman's pluck, his populous

spirit. his legacy would be revisited, his image refurbished and he would re-emerge in the pages of history as an uncommonly plain spoken truth teller, a president for the common man. harry truman was a liberal democrat, but these days you're just as like through hear republicans wistfully invoke his name. gee, they'll say, it is a shame they don't make them like harry truman anymore. history has a fun yea wny way og written and rewritten. i think we have seen enough evidence already and the prediction is that a few decades from now, when enough years have passed and the historians are able to put this era into some meaningful context, my prediction is the chapter on the obama president will begin on 2010 in the state of delaware. >> christine o'donnell, virtually unknown a few weeks ago, but this morning officially the gop candidate for the senate seat vacated by the vice president.

>> i think that will be the perfect place for history to start the story of what we're living through right now. not just the shutdown, not just the debt ceiling craziness, but the political stalemate that basically defined washington for the last few years and promises to do so all the way through to the end of barack obama's presidency at least. it is the perfect place to start the story of this period of political history. the perfect place is to -- excuse me, is that republican primary in delaware because it does explain everything. it explains the basic nature of the tea party movement. a conservative uprising that began when barack obama became president. it was an uprising that wasn't just directed at obama and the democrats, an uprising also aimed at republicans. because of how the conservative base, the tea party base, chose to explain obama's election in 2008. they didn't want to tell themselves that their ideology was repudiated by the rest of the country, that americans rejected conservatism and embraced the left of center philosophy. they came up with a story that blamed bush and blamed the republicans in washington who supported him. and they're telling bush had

betrayed the conservative cause as president. he bailed out the banks. he had given conservatism a bad name. that left voters in 2008 desperately searching for a new direction, which led them to obama. that's how the tea party retroactively assessed the bush years and how it explained obama's victory and how it became a purification movement, to cleanse the republican party of all of the sellouts who helped bush, who spoiled conservatism and helped to elect obama. mike cassell, the guy who lost to christine o'donnell, he was a textbook example of that kind of republican. he was in washington for 16 years, in politics a lot longer. he was a moderate republican, he worked with democrats, he voted for no child left behind, the medicare prescription drug plan, he voted for t.a.r.p. mike cassell was exactly the kind of republican that the tea party rose up to fight. the 2010 delaware senate primary also explains the depth of the base's desire to purge republicans like cassell. a former lieutenant governor,

former governor, eight-term congressen in from the state's lone district, credentialed and imposed by a gad fly with no name recognition, no money, no experience and some incredible obvious political baggage. and the gad fly won. o'donnell's primary win showed that literally anyone was better than someone like mike cassell. that primary also explains how little the tea party cares about actually winning general elections. outside of the gop base, cassell was immensely popular in delaware, a general election shoo-in, a guaranteed senate seat pickup for the gop if he was their candidate. o'donnell was a guaranteed loser, a fringe far right figure in a blue state. this was obvious on primary day, but the base picked o'donnell anyway and she was crushed in november and democrats won a senate race they were otherwise going to lose. so that whole story, the story of how cassell was targeted, how castle was beaten, whom castle was beaten by, the rosetta stone of tea party era politics.

if you understand what happened to him, why it happened to him, you understand everything that is going on in washington since then. and why we're stuck in the shutdown and why we're staring down the barrel of a dead default now, because the story of mike castle and christine o'donnell sums up the threat that every republican member of congress lives with every day now. if they're judged to be insufficiently conservative, if they're judged to be disloyal to the cause, if they give even an inch of space on their right, they could become the next target of the tea party. if the tea party targets you in a republican primary, as they showed, they can literally beat you with anybody. that is the lesson of delaware. that's the lesson that lives in the office of every republican member of congress. the news friday was that democrats thought they might have a way out of the shutdown, a discharge edition. 20 house republicans said, usually quietly, usually to the local press, sometimes through spokespeople, about 20 of them said they would be fine passing a clean government funding bill. in other words, they would give in to what democrats want in the shutdown. the democrats are circulating what is called a discharge

petition, if every democrat signs it, in those 20 republicans and do too, the clean bill would go straight to the floor for a vote and the government would be able to open up again. but now think about delaware and think about 2010, because it is one thing for those 20 republicans to hint that they would be fine with a clean bill. but actually putting their names on a democratic petition, it looks a lot -- a lot less than that, from mike castle to lose his career. september 14th, 2010, we're still living with what happened that day. as long as we are, there is no obvious way out of the shutdown, where the bigger mess that is washington these days. [ female announcer ] the best thing about this bar

it's not a candy bar. 130 calories 7 grams of protein the fiber one caramel nut protein bar.

[ mthat if you wear a partial,w you're almost twice as likely to lose your supporting teeth? try poligrip for partials. poligrip helps minimize stress which may damage supporting teeth by stabilizing your partial. care for your partial. help protect your natural teeth. we here at "up," dip into the metaphor, probably too often that tv hosts and politicians and pundits depend on metaphors to communicate in language that is colorful and easily digestible. this week in washington was especially colorful as the metaphors flew. and members of congress calling each other everything from lemmings to arsonists, even s

cicadas. >> like those cicadas that trouble different parts of the country, an irresponsible segment of the caucus reverted to the gop shenanigan of a government shutdown they left in some borough for the last 17 years. >> back at table with us, former republican congressman tom davis of virginia. so i -- you know, we talk in metaphors probably almost a crush sometimes, but i think when the situation is like this, it is easy to get lost in legislative, all the parliamentary procedure, legislative language, it can be really helpful, a good metaphor can be helpful, a good way of understanding it. at the same time, i'm not good at coming up with metaphors. i rely on other people that come up with them or can criticize them. one i heard this week that

jumped out was devin nunez, a republican congressman from california, he made headlines, called his fellow republicans a bunch of lemmings and lemmings with suicide vests strapped to them was the term he used, i think. as one of the producers pointed out to me, the idea of lemmings is a myth. a documentary from disney like in 1958 or something where i think they were throwing lemmings off the clip and videotaped this and said lemmings create mass suicide, giving lemmings a bad rap. how would you guys, you know, trying to explain what is going on in washington, how to get out of this, what the situation is and how to get out of it with the metaphor or some other colorful way, how would you explain it to people? >> i'm in a brad wistrom camp. he said i've seen jihads, terrorism, guys with bombs

strapped to their chests, that's not what this is. we might maybe get something done, maybe, i don't know. >> when it comes to the way to negotiate, i think of the kid or sometimes an adult who loses a game and says, okay, best two out of three and then loses two, and says best three out of five. that's the way i looked at this and -- in the context, the last two years of negotiation. every negotiation has ended in failure with mostly republicans saying, but the next time we're going to try this again and we'll play by a slightly different rule, next time. i keep -- it is -- i think -- i can't think of anything overarching, an imal metaphor fr the entire thing. >> i was definitely that kid saying three out of five now, four out of seven. but barack obama got into the metaphor game on friday too. let's play barack obama and offering his metaphor up for this. >> i've said, i'm happy to have

negotiations with the republicans and speaker boehner on a whole range of issues. but we can't do it with the gun held to the head of the american people. >> so there it is, the whole hostage thing, the gun held to the head, tom, what's your way of explaining it? >> basically what has happened is 80% of each caucus are in absolutely safe districts. safe democratic districts, safe republican districts, so 80% of each caucus. their members go home, and all they worry about is their primary because the primary voters don't like them to compromise. and that's the problem. they drive the caucuses. >> it gets christine o'donnell we're talking about -- what would you -- somebody says explain this to me, make me understand this, it is too complicated. how would you narrow it down? >> i just think telling people what is actually happening explains it pretty well. we're paying 350,000 people to not work in order to try and prevent initially maybe best case scenario, 7 million people

from getting health insurance. that was the starting position of all of this thing. and if you look at those facts, it just doesn't make any sense, and now, you know, the position is adding other different things into it. and i think people can understand what is happening. >> yes. i'm kind of curious about that too. we had some polling that has been taken at the top of the show here. i think the numbers -- i don't have them in front of me, do you blame president obama and the democrats or blame republicans and congress? i think 44%, cbs poll, 44% -- >> 35. >> and 35 for the republicans. so the advantage for democrats. i wonder if that's the -- if that number is big enough for what democrats are hoping to sort of -- in terms of getting republicans to fold a little bit, to get in here, is that a big enough margin for them? do they need to expand that more? >> i think it is less that and what they're trying to do in serms s terms of resetting the clock of politics. remember barack obama was reeling from the syrian situation, which, remember, ended without us sending

missiles anyway that saved more money than the shutdown is saving. he was in a weak position, heading into a negotiation where maybe entitlements would be on the table. and even if people don't blame the -- if people don't blame the republicans by margin of 40 points, it is just changing what washington's going to be able to discuss. i think that's why democrats aren't sweating it and they're not enjoying this really, but they remain so united, they think they're just keeping politics frozen in a place where they're ahead, more than -- people blame republicans for shutting down anyway, because more republicans are on record favoring this if it is what it takes to cut spending. they know they're not going to get blamed and it will change the conversation from something they were worried about to something they know they can stand fast on. >> and i wonder too, you know, tom, you start to get into it there, excuse me, with the issue of the primary challenge being the biggest sort of source of fear for the average republican lawmaker. >> and democrat. >> but it is much more real on the republican side. as we said with christine o'donnell, when that starts

happening, that's just got to get into the heads of republican -- >> democrats have a president who makes a huge difference. two things i note. one is a year say long time in politics. however bad the republicans get beat up on this, and they're not getting beaten up as badly as they were 15 years ago for 17 years ago or whenever this happened before, it is nowhere near those kind of margins because the country is so stratified. but the yeareternity in politics. if republicans were to surrender at this point, what happens when they go back to the districts and the primarys? >> i got out of the segment without doing my own metaphor because i'm not good at them. we'll be right back after this. ♪ [ male announcer ] you know that family? the one whose eye for design is apparent in every detail? ♪ whose refined taste is best characterized by the company they keep? ♪ well...say hello to the newest member of the family.

the cadillac srx. awarded best interior design of any luxury brand. take advantage of this exceptional offer on the 2013 cadillac srx with premium care maintenance included. at any minute... ...you could be a victim of fraud. most people don't even know it. fraud could mean lower credit scores, higher loan rates... ...and maybe not getting the car you want. it's a problem waiting to happen. check your credit score, check your credit report, at experian.com america's number one provider of online credit reports and scores. don't take chances. go to experian.com. [ male announcer ] we all have something neatly tucked away in the back of our mind. a secret hope. that thing we've always wanted to do. it's not about having dreams,

it's about reaching them. ♪ an ally for real possibilities. aarp. find tools and direction at aarp.org/possibilities.

we're coming up against the top of the hour here. i guess i want to close out this particular panel by going around quickly and seeing looking ahead to the next week and what we think is going to play out in washington this week, if we're

sitting at this table a week from now, do you think we'll be talking about significant progress being made in this and if so, how? >> not a chance. still status quo. i agree with dave and everyone else, this will bleed into the october 17th debt deadline. i don't think the message is solid yet next week. >> i think the shutdown is going to continue. i think the interesting thing will be the republicans doing the mini crs, every time somebody squeals, they recognize one of these agencies actually is -- plays an important role in american life, to see how many of the republicans are put forward and how many institutions they formally support finally. >> that's what i'm wondering, do you get to the point where they put the whole government on the table and democrats say, we'll take your 6200 mini crs. >> republicans need to convince world war ii veterans they need to visit the offices. say, look, it is all i can think of to visit the chamber -- the department of commerce now and occupy their -- the problem is

solved. one thing for people to fund the government. >> the greatest generation has one more mission left. thanks to dave weigel of blade, wanda summers of politico. when we come back, we're going to party like it is 1995. i've been looking forward to this. who has 11 major brands to choose from? your ford dealer. who's offering a rebate? your ford dealer. who has the low price tire guarantee, affording peace of mind to anyone who might be in the market for a new set of tires? your ford dealer. i'm beginning to sense a pattern. get up to $140 in mail-in rebates when you buy four select tires with the ford service credit card. where'd you get that sweater vest? your ford dealer. (coffee bein♪ poured into a cup.) save your coffee from the artificial stuff.

switch to truvia. great tasting, zero-calorie sweetness from the stevia leaf. from nature, for sweetness. but it's fine, because i use tide with bleach which helps keep his socks brilliantly white. bye mom. hold on. [ horn honks ] show 'em what you got!!! [ female announcer ] tide plus bleach alternative is back. mom!! [ mom ] that's my tide. what's yours?

[ ship horn blows ] no, no, no! stop! humans. one day we're coming up with the theory of relativity, the next... not so much. but that's okay -- you're covered with great ideas like optional better car replacement

from liberty mutual insurance. total your car and we give you the money to buy one a model year newer. learn about it at libertymutual.com. liberty mutual insurance. responsibility. what's your policy? lauren mcgregor tweeted something the other day that sets up our next segment very nicely. she wrote, those who don't study history are doomed to repeat it, those who do, are doomed to watch others repeat it. we saw congressional republicans shut down the government, something they haven't done since this. >> this is nbc "nightly news" with tom brokaw. >> good evening. neither the president nor the speaker nor senator dole will give. so tonight much of the government remains shut down. >> tom brokaw, all over our show today, really fun.

the government shutdown of 1995 and 1996 was a 21-day standoff over republican plans to cut medicare spending. some republicans like senator ted cruz of texas long have been arguing that republicans didn't actually pay a political price for that back then. in this week they got some support. a bunch of polling data from 1995 and 1996 together, they found that bill clinton's approval rating didn't actually spike in the months after the shutdown. also found that newt gingrich's numbers didn't really get much worse than they already were and house republicans only lost a net total of three seats in the 1996 election. so the shutdown they argue was basically a wash. but that misses the bigger picture. the shutdown of 1995 was actually the most dramatic in a series of events that reshaped american politics, that created clear and deep geographic and cultural divisions between the parties. it helped give us the red states and the blue states that we know today, to help give us the near total lack of swing states we know today. started with bill clinton's election in 1992.

there was a conservative backlash to that, and there was states particularly in the south where conservative leaning voters stopped voting democratic and started going republican across the board. and that helped give us the newt gingrich led republican revolution of 1994, which gave us the shutdown in 1995, and it led to another backlash. this time in what today are the blue states. take new jersey, bill clinton won by a margin of two points in 1992, and where republicans had won six straight presidential elections before that. but in 1996, after the shutdown, clinton's margins soared to 18 points. new jersey was a swing state before that, but it has been a blue state ever since. similar story played out elsewhere, connecticut, maine, vermont, delaware, california, washington, oregon, illinois, michigan, states up for grabs that were winnable for republicans in elections became safe democratic territory, they became the blue states. 95 shutdown is far from the only reason this happened. but it was one of the most vivid and dramatic reasons. it synced conservative voters

with republicans and moderate and liberal voters with democrats. it helped -- excuse me, helped turn the split ticket voting into a thing of the past. for example in 1995, 79 house members were from districts that president clinton won in the previous presidential election. today, the number of republicans from obama districts is 17. it raises the question, 1995 is the obvious point of comparison for the shutdown today. but are there any lessons from it that still apply today? here to discuss that are congressman charlie rangel, democrat from new york, eleanor cliff, contributing editor at the daily beast and ann lewis, former white house communications director for bill clinton and tom davis again, republican of virginia. so i've been looking forward to this panel for a week. you were all there in important ways in 1995, the last time the government was shut down. wasn't to g i want to get to the lessons and what has changed since then. set the stage to remind people what was at stake, exactly what brought about the 1995 shutdown

and you were in the white house for us, just remind everybody what that shutdown was about and what the white house was trying to achieve. >> 1995, '96, i was in the campaign. i was sitting in a campaign office watching this and thinking, they must have a plan. there must be a reason why they think is good for them, the republicans. i'm waiting to see what it is. and when i see those polls that say newt's numbers, for example, do not go down, i will tell you that every commercial we ran, which showed newt gingrich and bob dole arm and arm, went down like this. newt became radioactive in the american public. >> gingrich was -- in the clinton re-election campaign and all the congressional campaign re-elections -- >> bob dole was the nominee and we learned that dole's people really wished they didn't have to stand so close to him in the press conferences but, of course, they did. and that was the clip we used. we never used bob dole alone because there was suspicion he was a reasonable person. but bob dole with newt gingrich

right there and that's what people saw. this isn't what they wanted in their leadership. >> eleanor, take us to the nuts and bolts of medicare spending and what was the 1995 shutdown about? >> well, the president had endorsed a balanced budget in the spring of that year, and so the debate was not about whether the budget would be balanced, but now and the republicans had cut backs in medicare and so it became a confrontation over whose values do you support. the republicans versus the white house. and so in retrospect, it looks look a knignice setup for presi clinton. i was at the breakfast three days into the shutdown when speaker gingrich confessed that one of the reasons behind the shutdown was that he and senator dole felt snubbed because they were on this long plane flight to israel for prime minister yitzhak rabin's funeral, he was assassinated and the president

stayed up front with presidents carter and george h.w. bush and never summoned them to the front for negotiations. and they had to exit the plane by the back ramp. tony blankly, who was gingrich's press secretary, was sitting there, kind of waving and doing all this, trying to get newt to stop, and he wouldn't. and so the front page of the new york post had newt gingrich in diapers waving a bottle, saying, cry baby. when i looked back to that period, i think it is -- that really helped tilt the political playing field toward the white house. >> congressman rangel, gingrich himself was radioactive political figure at the time and eleanor has that anecdote in the tabloid cover here in new york, absent gingrich, when that shutdown began as a democrat in congress, did you feel like, you know, we're going to have the upper hand in this, we'll be okay, or how are you feeling in the shutdown? >> i guess we were optimistic

that this was so negative, that people would be concerned that it would be causing more damage. we knew that when eleanor talked about gingrich, i actually teased him about what had happened, he was the first speaker from my african trade bill, dole was the one that helped me out with the income tax credit, and all i could think about at that time was the quest for political power. and gingrich was the first one to break all of the rules in terms of censuring and punishing republicans, unfortunately democrats picked up a lot of that. but he broke all liberals in order to be a speaker. and when he broke down the government, republicans felt embarrassed. the difference today is that when republicans -- i don't know whether to call this info for people, republicans, because they had glee, they were happy

when the government fell. and in other words, they don't -- gingrich is for party. they don't care about themselves. they don't care about the party. and closing down the government and threatening not to raise the debt ceiling is not normal political behavior as i have seen it over the years. >> we have a republican here who was -- tom, you're a freshman republican in 1995, elected in that republican wave in 1994. take us back, what are you thinking? you're watching your fellow freshman republicans, newt gingrich, the new speaker, sort of leading the party into this shutdown, were you saying let's do this or what were you thinking? >> i had a district across the river from washington with 56,000 federal employees and 100,000 contractors. i was -- i thought it was the dumbest thing i had ever heard. got up in the conference and gave this roaring speech and frank wolf applauded for me and connie morella and that was it. i said, to dick armey, this

can't be going very well, i said, did you do any polling? he said, we're flying blind on this. don't think they had any idea. they hadn't had congress in 40 years. they were flexing their muscles. we had shutdowns before, but never of this duration. a number of us went to gingrich after he was -- after this plane incident, had to leave the back of the plane, said we're promoting you to chief petty officer. so what was the way out in, you know, we're a week into the shutdown now, in 1995, it lasted -- it was a series of shutdowns, wasn't one shutdown, stretched into early '96, first days of 1996, totalling 21 days of shutdown. what was the way out, the resolution. >> i think one of the biggest differences for me was where we are now and where we were then is, look, as we have discussed, newt was a character. he was needy. he was erratic. he went to more love and attention than maybe the universe could give them. but eventually, when you can make a deal with him, he can deliver his caucus. he was a leader of the

republican caucus. now, i'm prepared to say right now that john boehner is probably a nicer person, more balanced, more normal, but can't deliver his caucus, can't lead. the question is, yes, you can negotiate with newt because at the end of the day, if you reach an agreement, you could reasonably be sure that that would mean the government would reopen and negotiate with john boehner. don't know what happens next, but i'm pretty sure it is not constructive. >> the negotiations in terms of getting the government reopened in 1995 and 1996, you look back at how it was resolved incessio did you say i'm happy with the way it turned out, did you think the democrats gave too much or -- >> you have your liberal side, which i'm proud to enjoy and the conservative, so the best deal is one when the moderates either republicans or democrats, they don't like it at all. but wanting the country to go forward supersedes any political

gains that you can have. but, you know, we play roles as politicians and no matter what you think of john boehner, i think of the opportunity for him to be able to say my fellow americans, i have tried hard to deal with this part of my party. i thank them for making me speaker. but i'm an american first, i'm a good republican. and i love this congress and my country. and so therefore i release all of the republicans, vote your conscience, vote the flag, vote for your can country. >> i think that's the moment he becomes former speaker john boehner. >> becomes an international person of dignity and pride. i agree with you. >> interesting way of putting it. i want to get into as well what we're looking at the similarities and differences and what the political impact was in the 1996 elections and what the political impact of this could be next year in the midterm

elections. we'll get into that right after this. [ male announcer ] when we built the cadillac ats from the ground up to be the world's best sport sedan... ♪ ...people noticed. ♪ the cadillac ats -- 2013 north american car of the year. lease this cadillac ats for around $299 per month with premium care maintenance included. ♪ because an empty pan is a blank canvas. ♪ [ woman #2 ] to share a moment. ♪ [ man #1 ] to remember my grandmother. [ woman #3 ] to show my love. ♪ [ woman #4 ] because life needs flavor. ♪ [ woman #5 ] to travel the world without leaving home. [ male announcer ] whatever the reason. whatever the dish. make it delicious with swanson. [ woman #1 ] that's why i cook.

you know who you are. you can part a crowd, without saying a word... if you have yet to master the quiet sneeze... you stash tissues like a squirrel stashes nuts... well muddlers, muddle no more. try zyrtec®. it gives you powerful allergy relief. and zyrtec® is different than claritin® because zyrtec® starts working at hour one on the first day you take it. claritin® doesn't start working until hour three. zyrtec®. love the air.

the president in recent polls is winning almost twice as many people blame republicans for the mess as mr. clinton. the more he resists, the better democratic pollsters argue. >> people worry about how far the republicans are going. there is a sense that this is going to hurt middle class people, hurt working families, and they don't -- they want a solution, but they don't want a solution at the expense of working families. >> for now, the sentiment grows that the only thing working are the political games. >> and there is that newt gingrich tabloid cover that you were talking about a few minutes ago. let's look ahead to 2014 and maybe trying to use 1996 as a reference point. the senate piece for this a few minutes ago, i gave my take on

it, which is that my reading of 1996 is, yeah, the republicans did not suffer huge losses in the house, a net loss of three, but if you look closer at the house results in '96, there were 18 republican incumbents who lost in the general election. and they were primarily from what we now call the blue states. sos it it w s iit was a sorting the blue states became blue states and red state gotz redder and we got stuck with the map we had ever since. it leaves me with the question, is there any damage left that could be done to either party politically, are we so sorted out that there isn't? >> in that setup piece you just did of the clip from '95, the pollster that is shown is jeff guerin, democratic pollster. he did a call with reporters last week saying that his data shows that this is perhaps the only thing that could shake up 2014. and i think democrats have been pretty well reconciled they couldn't get the 17 seats to get the majority that everything is so gerrymandered. but if you start calling around, admittedly, democrats, but william gholston who is at

brookings, he was in the clinton white house, he said there is research that shows you can overcome that structural barrier if democrats overall can pick up five more percentage points for the house. and as you know, democrats won more votes collectively for the house than republicans, but republicans maintain power. but that's a kind of magic number, if you can achieve that, and the distaste for the republican management of the house is now very great. the elections a year from now, i don't know if that will maintain, but right now you see an energy among democrats saying that if the generic difference and it is now measured at 9 points and the quinnipiac and pew polls, if that holds, nancy pelosi is the next speaker. >> how do you look at it, comparing '96 to 2014 with the implications. >> that's what i'm looking at is what is the difference -- why are all elections, looking at -- 96 was the presidential year. we have gotten pretty good at

presidential elections, i would like to think it is because we're talking about the policies that make a difference in people's lives, what is happening off the elections is too many voters stay home. if i were trying to plan in secret a plot to make sure democratic voters were so angry, this might be a republican in congress shuts down the government, shuts down the food and drug administration, stops the wic, women and infants and children feeding programs, a deliberate sign of how far republicans are willing to go to get political strength at the expense of the most vulnerable. that's where we are right now. i think we have a real opportunity to increase our turnout. and the second thing i would look at is who then would be the most vulnerable republicans? i would look at republican members from the northeast. i don't think it is a coincidence some people are saying, we'll vote for a clean cr, give us a chance, happened to be republicans from the northeast. and i would look at some of those southwestern states in

which hispanic voters are just a growing potential majority. >> tom, you know, one of the other differences that jumps out at me between 1996 and today, '95, '96, the times had this piece, in '95, '96, there was no thing such as the fox news channel until the end of 1996. the breitbart conservative news empire did not exist. he was a lowly assistant at e online. drudge report, nobody knew about that. all the way that the conservative world gets its information, processes information, sort of -- this sort of conservative media bubble didn't exist back then. and i wonder if that makes it harder for the party today to get out of a mess like this. >> there are three factors. that's one of them. the media models left and right in terms of how people get their news and sort it out, they're not agreeing in the same sort of facts, they're in parallel universes. but i would add the redistricting that folks are from safe districts, the primaries are the main concerns

and reinforcing that is campaign finance reform, which i voted against and citizens united, the money moved away from the parties now, it is out in the interest groups can am bush somebody in the primary and nobody to rescue them in terms of compromise and those kind of things. that has polarized us, made it combustible at this point, makes it much harder to get agreements. >> the parties are weak, the so-called special interests are in control, and if you look at who is calling the shots on the republican side, you have heritage action, which is relatively new outgrowth of heritage foundation, which former senator vitter who has more power now than he ever had when he was in the senate. and you've got club for growth and americans for prosperity. you have two kinds of republicans, the tea party republicans, and then the ones that are tare fide of the tea party republicans. they're all making these concessions to try to avoid primaries. if you look at all the contested states around the country, i think there is seven republican races. they're all, you know, crawling

all over each other, trying to say who could be most conservative and leaving a lot of running room for democrats. >> that's another -- another difference, heritage in the mid1990s was pushing individual mandates because -- anyway, we're out of time for the segment. i want to thank congressman charlie rangel for joining us. we'll take a peek at the man behind the curtain who is driving the agenda for the democrats during this shutdown fight. across america people are taking charge of their type 2 diabetes with non-insulin victoza®. for a while, i took a pill to lower my blood sugar,

but it didn't get me to my goal. so i asked my doctor about victoza®. he said victoza® is different than pills. victoza® is proven to lower blood sugar and a1c. it's taken once-a-day, any time, and comes in a pen. and the needle is thin. victoza® is not for weight loss, but it may help you lose some weight. victoza® is an injectable prescription medicine that may improve blood sugar in adults with type 2 diabetes when used with diet and exercise. it is not recommended as the first medication to treat diabetes and should not be used in people with type 1 diabetes or diabetic ketoacidosis. victoza® has not been studied with mealtime insulin. victoza® is not insulin. do not take victoza® if you have a personal or family history of medullary thyroid cancer, multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2, or if you are allergic to victoza® or any of its ingredients. symptoms of a serious allergic reaction may include: swelling of face, lips, tongue, or throat, fainting or dizziness, very rapid heartbeat, problems breathing

or swallowing, severe rash or itching. tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. serious side effects may happen in people who take victoza®, including inflammation of the pancreas (pancreatitis), which may be fatal. stop taking victoza® and call your doctor right away if you have signs of pancreatitis, such as severe pain that will not go away in your abdomen or from your abdomen to your back, with or without vomiting. tell your doctor about all the medicines you take and if you have any medical conditions. taking victoza® with a sulfonylurea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. the most common side effects are nausea, diarrhea, and headache. some side effects can lead to dehydration, which may cause kidney problems. if your pill isn't giving you the control you need ask your doctor about non-insulin victoza®. it's covered by most health plans. at a ford dealer with a little q and a for fiona. tell me fiona, who's having a big tire event? your ford dealer. who has 11 major brands to choose from? your ford dealer.

who's offering a rebate? your ford dealer. who has the low price tire guarantee, affording peace of mind to anyone who might be in the market for a new set of tires? your ford dealer. i'm beginning to sense a pattern. get up to $140 in mail-in rebates when you buy four select tires with the ford service credit card. where'd you get that sweater vest? your ford dealer. if there is a democrat anywhere that can give president barack obama a run for their money, it might just be harry reid. >> majority leader harry reid has essentially told the house of representatives and the american people, go jump in a lake. >> harry reid spilled the beans today, what they're willing to do, risk the lives of children and such. >> we're not the ones punishing people. it is harry reid who is punishing people. >> i'm glad to invite to the microphone, our distinguished majority leader in the senate, marry reid.

harry reid. i'm sorry, harry's not here today. maybe he'll show up later. >> generally portrayed as a showdown between president obama and congressional republicans, but the hidden strong man for democrats in this site is the senate majority leader, the one using every legislative tool he knows to stop everything that comes out of the republican house. he's the one driving the democrats' hard-line strategy at both ends of pennsylvania avenue, and he's the one chewing them out daily on national television. >> we are not going to mess around with obama care, no matter what they do. they have got to get a life. it is embarrassing that these people who are elected to represent the country are representing the tea party, the anarchists of the country. it is time for my republican friends to defy your tea party overlords. >> who is harry reid? what is his strategy?

is it going to work? joining us to talk about that is our favorite harry reidologist, john ralston. here in the studio is jim manly, a 21-year veteran of the senate who spent much of the time working for senator reid and knows him very well. jim, i'll start with you you know him so well. we played all the republicans bashing him. he gets under their skin like few others do on capitol hill. is he enjoying this on some level? does he enjoy what he evokes from republicans? >> the fact of the matter is he once said, by that, he would rather dance than fight. to that, i say, however, while he preferred a dance, he's one hell of a fighter. if the republicans want to fight, you know, he's going to take it to him. i must admit watching that clip brought back a lot of great memories. part of me after watching some of those republicans say i wish i was back there going after him. not one word of what he said is correct. >> what is it, also, in terms of just legislative tactics and in terms of the role he's playing

now in the shutdown what is it in particular he's doing that is getting under their skin so much? >> well, the first thing is, that he's keeping his caucus together. and when you have the caucus together standing up with the white house with what the republicans are proposing, you got a united front that will get them to back down. he learned -- he learned a long time ago that the republicans want to do nothing more than to undermine the president's agenda. it has taken the president a little bit of time to figure that out, but now everyone is on the same page and they recognize this threat for what it is. and they're trying to overturn the last two elections in 28 and 2012 to try to advance their agenda. >> i want to bring you in here from nevada, john. you were quoted, best-selling book here on the new york times list called this town, a whole section on harry reid, a really interesting character portrait of harry reid. you were sort of talking about the harry reid that the public

sees and quoted as saying, you know, that -- quote, the -- excuse me, reid is a master of that practices pale-faced bump kin from search light act. and it mask a ruthless and machiavellian politician. explain what you mean by that. >> i think just because of his appearance, steve, harry reid is easy to underestimate. doesn't have a booming voice, not a charismatic guy. but as jim manly well knows, even though he may not tell all, today harry reid behind the scenes is exactly as i described him. one of the reasons he's able to hold his caucus together is he's willinto go out and say all kinds of sometimes crazy stuff, and so his caucus doesn't have to take the bullets, he'll absorb all of the criticism. every day saying tea party anarchists, saying the republicans have lost their minds, as he said the other day, saying he feels sorry for john

boehner. this is harry reid essentially not caring as most politics do whether or not the republicans hate him, whether he'll engender all kinds of venom in the country. he just, unlike most politicians, doesn't care about that kind of stuff. >> let me ask you about that. is that a new thing in some way, he had such a difficult re-election race in 2010, a miracle, he got lucky, got one of the tea party opponents and table to survive. is he maybe liberated and thinking is -- is the thinking he's not going to run in 2016, he doesn't have to worry about offending the home stake constituency at all? >> i think it is just harry reid. i think he probably intends to run in 2016. i think as i said before, people who are underestimating harry reid are littered in graveyards across nevada. so i don't think that you should think that he's just doing -- he's unfettered because he's not going to run again. you mentioned the tea party

opponent, that is the machiavellian ruthless side of harry reid who mettled in a primary, so that a better candidate would not come out, got sharron angle, helped sharron angle to win the primary and defeated her. this is a guy, steve, who had a 50% negative rating who won the race. he doesn't like campaigning. he has no taste for it. doesn't like being out on the stump, but puts very good people around him and then he can get back to what he loves to do, which is to make deals, which is to have a goal, legislatively, and get to it. let's not forget, he keeps talking about obama care and republicans criticize that. barack obama did not get obama care passed, harry reid did, by making the kind of deals he's famous for in washington, d.c. >> john, tom davis has a question for you. >> the fact that they're going after the republican lieutenant governor this time around, they can't beat sandoval, who would be a strong opponent to reid next time, tells you he's thinking two steps ahead, you

think, to 2016? >> that's exactly what's going on. i don't think brian sandoval is committed to run for the u.s. senate, but he's a popular governor. he doesn't have much of a race next year. he's going to win. so he's actually handpicked a lieutenant governor's candidate that doesn't run as a tick net nevada. so someone will there be in case he decides to run against harry reid. team reid, most formidable, democratic operation this state has ever seen, and probably comparable to any other state, is trying to find a candidate because they want to stop sandoval. they leave nothing to chance, that's what harry reid has done his entire career. >> john, i want to ask you about the harry reid, sort of the perceptions of harry reid. he's sort of, i think, a mysterious figure in a little way watching him on television. there is apparently, i think this is from this town as well, he has this habit where he'll hang up the phone s that true? you're on the phone and he just hangs up, he never says good-bye. >> never says good-bye.

he actually even does it to the president of the united states as well. it is one of the quirks of -- >> ever asked him why he does that? >> he said he just -- after he's done, he just basically hangs up the phone. he assumes the other person wants to do the same as well, to get on to the next call. so just one of the little quirks about him that i love. i got to tell you. let me go back to what you said about whether this is senator reid freed up. you see these gray hairs on my head? a lot of them came because of senator reid. he has a refreshing habit of speaking what is on his mind, which is -- can be a very dangerous thing for a politician. i worked for ted kennedy for 12 years. say what you will about the man, but he was -- he rarely made reddiceip slips. senator reid, he honestly

doesn't care. he says what he means and he means what he says. >> does he -- we talk about this whole story of the shutdown is the story of the stalemate in washington now. do you think he enjoys being in the senate right now? >> oh, sure. he's made for the senate. >> even when it is just sort of ground to a halt like it is. >> but that's why he's doing what he's doing right now. he's had enough. i mean, from his perspective, from the first day president obama came into office, he saw republican party prepared to undermine everything that the president was proposing. took him 60 votes to get the economic stimulus. took him 60 votes to get health care reform. and then so he's had to fight for everything. and so -- he's had -- basically he and his caucus had engh. he sees a bunch of tea party types trying to undermine what this country stands for and what the support of his caucus and with the alliance of the president he's going to do what

he can. >> fascinating character, we can get into this, but another anecdote is when he had a meeting with george w. bush, in the oval office, george w. bush as presidency, from this town, reid insulted the dog's barney, your dog is fat. how did george bush respond to that? >> he laughed a little bit. but i was sitting in the corner going, i can't believe he just said that. >> he hangs up on the president and insults the dog. thanks to john ralston and john manly. it is the ones who can think on their feet that make it into the sound bite hall of fame. we'll induct a new must be straight ahead. landfills each ? by using one less trash bag each month, we can. and glad forceflex bags stretch until they're full.* so you can take them out less often.

so i should probably get the last roll... yeah but i practiced my bassoon. [ mom ] and i listened. [ brother ] i can do this. [ imitates robot ] everyone deserves ooey, gooey, pillsbury cinnamon rolls. make the weekend pop.

every saturday we play "up against the clock," sometimes we'll throw in a question from the week that was a long time ago. >> at a vice presidential debate held 25 years ago today, which candidate uttered the famous

put-down, senator, you're no jack kennedy? michael? >> lloyd benson. >> lloyd benson is correct. >> lloyd benson in the greatest political insult of all time, the art of political insults. we'll talk about it next. keepinr digestive balance in sync? try align. it's the number one ge recommended probiotic that helps maintain digestive balance. ♪ stay in the groove with align. ♪ need help keeping your digestive balance in sync? try align. it's a probiotic that fortifies your digestive system with healthy bacteria 24/7. because your insides set the tone. stay in the groove with align. because your insides set the tone. if yand you're talking toevere rheuyour rheumatologistike me, about trying or adding a biologic. this is humira, adalimumab. this is humira working to help relieve my pain. this is humira helping me through the twists and turns. this is humira helping to protect my joints from further damage.

doctors have been prescribing humira for over ten years. humira works by targeting and helping to block a specific source of inflammation that contributes to ra symptoms. for many adults, humira is proven to help relieve pain and stop further joint damage. humira can lower your ability to fight infections, including tuberculosis. serious, sometimes fatal events, such as infections, lymphoma, or other types of cancer, have happened. blood, liver and nervous system problems, serious allergic reactions, and new or worsening heart failure have occurred. before starting humira , your doctor should test you for tb. ask your doctor if you live in or have been to a region where certain fungal infections are common. tell your doctor if you have had tb, hepatitis b, are prone to infections, or have symptoms such as fever, fatigue, cough, or sores. you should not start humira if you have any kind of infection. ask your doctor if humira can work for you. this is humira at work. ...amelia... neil and buzz: for teaching us that you can't create the future...

by clinging to the past. and with that: you're history. instead of looking behind... delta is looking beyond. 80 thousand of us investing billions... in everything from the best experiences below... to the finest comforts above. we're not simply saluting history... we're making it. it fills you with energy... and it gives you what you are looking for

to live a more natural life. in a convenient two bar pack. this is nature valley. nature at its most delicious. a question you're asking is what kind of qualifications does dan quayle have to be president. >> that is dan quayle, 25 years ago, last night in the 1988 vice presidential debate at the omaha civic center, walking right smack into the most devastating political put-down ever. >> i have far more experience than many others that sought the office of vice president of this country. i have as much experience in the congress as jack kennedy did when he sought the presidency. i will be prepared to deal with the people in the bush administration if that

unfortunate event would ever occur. >> senator benson? >> senator, i served with jack kennedy. i knew jack kennedy. jack kennedy was a friend of mine. senator, you're no jack kennedy. what has to be done, in a situation like that -- >> please, please, once again, you're only taking time -- >> is to call in the -- >> that was really uncalled for, senator. >> senator, you're the one that was making the comparison, senator. and i'm one who knew him well. >> so those 23 words lloyd benson uttered were all anyone could talk about the next day. the new york times reporter, some guy named e.j. deon led

with it. the washington post asked about jfk ghost and the quayle factor. >> if this had been a boxing match last night, benson would have won a tko. as one independent said in omaha this morning, if it had been a botching match, the referee would have stopped the fight. >> of course, benson's anger did nothing to stop the bush/quayle ticket but it did set the standard for political insults and lived on in popular and political cultures since then. to this day, the words that lloyd benson spoke to dan quayle that night in omaha are the words that define both men. >> in 1988, dan quayle had the most to lose and it appeared he did lose the most the night debated the vice presidential candidate for the democrats, lloyd benbenson. >> the only thing we remember is the zinger that lloyd benson go on dan quayle, you're no jack kennedy. >> one of the biggest knockouts

in a vp debate ever was lloyd benson over dan quayle. >> i saw senator benson go from someone who wasn't that good to being a great debater on the night he met dan quayle. >> lloyd benson would be proud. >> we'll keep talking about this for a long time. i think to look closer at lloyd benson's most celebrated moment and the art of the political insi insu insult, we're joined by syndicated columnist bob franken. i'm setting this up, selling this as i think it was the most devastating put-down ever, at least in modern american politics, i'll put that qualifier on it. i think so because it seemed spontaneous, seemed like quayle walked into something and benson hit him with it and also that he didn't do it to his face. it was easy to say something on the stump, the campaign speech picked up by the news, but to say it to his face like that and reaction from the crowd, democrats in the crowd cheering, but, boy, he tapped into something like that. >> there is an old george burns line that the key to success in show business is sincerity. if you can fake that, you've got

it made. similarly, in debates, t key to success is looking spontaneous and you achieve that by being very well rehearsed. there is little doubt he was well rehearsed as was ronald reagan with another devastating put-down, which was there you go again when jimmy carter was attacking him. reagan was able to do it, and look genius at the same time. i would say i with like to expand on the competition to the world. and i was doing a little research for this. and, by the way, i've stolen this idea for a column i'm going to write. there is no plagiarism, but benjamin may have been champ, 19th century england and said he's committed every crime that does not require courage. now, that is an insult. >> i'll say, when i think of the dan quayle one, it is a great line no matter what. but it also -- there was, take us back to 1988, there was so

much concern about dan quayle's basic preparation to be the president, his basic lack of experience. what benson was articulating there was something that i think people across the country had been feeling for so long. somebody put it into words. >> that was the success of it. when you get that kind of -- remember, dan quayle, he's introduced to us, he looks look a deer in the headlights. that's what we first started seeing that simile, this image of dan quayle on the day he's introduced as potentially the next vice president. and he does not look ready. so when lloyd benson used that line, and you saw the audience erupt, he was speaking for a whole lot of people. so it is an insult that is sort of short enough to remember, it is funny enough to repeat, most importantly it has resonance with the public. that's perfect. >> that's the amazing thing to me when you think of lloyd benson passed away six or seven years ago, 85 years old, he served in the senate, served three terms in the senate, secretary of the treasury, he was -- a lot of people on the democratic base didn't like him very much, very conservative, belonged to the all white

country club, until, like, the '88 campaign. but that one line now basically defines lloyd -- you say the name lloyd benson, obituary, it is what people think of, a hero to democrats because of it. >> but it didn't win the presidential race for the ticket. there is that minor detail. and when you look back at the simplistic thinking that prompted president george h.w. bush to choose quayle, he was going for the baby boomer vote, going for glamour. and they thought that the good looks and the charm of dan quayle and he was a very charming and if he had stayed in the senate, we might have come to think of him as an accomplished politician. it really -- his time in public office doesn't leave him with a very good first line in his eventual obituary. >> he was 40 years old, very young when he was added to the ticket. same thing about lloyd benson

with dan quayle. his introduction to the american people a few months before that debate had gotten very rocky. that line still, i think, defines people's impressions of him to this day. he can never escape the trap of what that line expressed. >> nothing of significance you can accomplish that overcomes that, or that he did. that's hard to overcome. my favorite, though, is another quote, he said of gladstone, he's intoxicated with the exuberance of his own verbosity. >> that gets to the great political insult. i think in 1988, it shows us what a powerful political weapon that is. that didn't win the election. >> dan quayle, everything he did was viewed through the prism that co-not lihe could not livet quote. if he laughed it off, and said, you got me there or something, and moved on, we would think of it differently. but when he corrected a grade schooler on the spelling of potato, saying there needs to be

an e on the end of it, you know, these are moments that live on in politics. i think dan quayle to his credit today does laugh the moments off. >> calling somebody inexperienced, let's be honest about it, stupid, doesn't seem to make much difference in election. ann lewis famously said that george w. bush was born with a -- >> ann richards, yeah. but you wish you said it. >> exactly. >> but ann lewis -- ann richards said he was born with a silver spoon in his mouth and people in texas called him a shrub but he won twice. >> i have a feeling if they had a separate election for vice president and president, we would have have the bush/benson tick net tet in the white house. i'm thinking of other examples of insults that have political implications. 1984, this might have changed the outcome of the democratic presidential race.

>> -- entrepreneurs, when i hear -- when i hear -- when i hear your new ideas, i'm reminded of that ad, where's the beef? >> yeah. >> so that was the wendy's add. wendy's had the big "where's the beef?" campaign in 1994. but walter mondell is former vice president. it looked like hart was going to pick off the nomination and mondell delivered that line. i don't know if that's the line that did it, but the momentum of the race kind of changed. >> and that line was not spontaneous. not only was that line suggested to him by his campaign manager, but when it was first suggested, walter mondell didn't know what the ad was and they had to go through, and walk it through -- they said, you know, you're busy, you're running for president. you don't have time to keep up with popular cultural. but once he got it and knew it would work, it was short, funny, repeatable. >> and not that offensive. >> right. >> here we are now, where, in

fact, they are being offensive. they're being juvenile. you have a congressman yelling at the president during the state of the union, "liar." >> and raises $1 million in the next week. >> he did. and you have all the back and forth now that's going on in the current debate and all that type of stuff. what made these things so lasting and so funny, in my opinion, was the appearance that they were civilized. we weren't, of course, but there was that appearance. >> and when ronald reagan made that, i won't exploit my opponent's youth and inexperience to my opponent, mondell laughed. there was nothing else to do but laugh. what should we know, coming up next. with centurylink as your trusted partner, our visionary cloud infrastructure and global broadband network free you to focus on what matters. with custom communications solutions and responsive, dedicated support, we constantly evolve to meet your needs. every day of the week.

centurylink® your link to what's next. let's see what you got. rv -- covered. why would you pay for a hotel? i never do. motorcycles -- check. atv. i ride those. do you? no. boat. ahoy, mateys. house? hello, dear. hello. hello. van with airbrushed fire-breathing dragons. ah! check. thank you. the more you bundle, the more you save. now, that's progressive. i get out a lot... except when it's too cold. like the last three weekends. asthma doesn't affect my job... you missed the meeting again last week! it doesn't affect my family. your coughing woke me up again. i wish you'd take me to the park. i don't use my rescue inhaler a lot... depends on what you mean by a lot. coping with asthma isn't controlling it. test your level of control at asthma.com,

then talk to your doctor. there may be more you could do for your asthma.

okay. we've reached the end of the hour. time to ask our guests what they think we should know today. we'll start with you. >> we've talked a lot about the differences between now and the last time the government shut down. one of those differences is this high-tech right-wing eco chamber where people keep tell each other they're winning. last night in virginia, the

conservative republican candidate for governor, speaking at a conservative event, actually speaked out early so he could avoid being photographed with ted cruz. doesn't sound like winning to me. >> after he said, we need more ted cruzes in the senate, in a different time. i think a year from now, this will be basically on the back burner. i think we'll have another set of issues, assuming we don't go over the debt ceiling. the debt ceiling is something that could be a travesty for the party and the country. >> absolutely. bob? >> well, next year, of course, none of the issues is going to be resolved, because it's an election year. what we should know, people are saying that nobody is talking in the current crisis, yes, they are. there is communication going on. so when they finally decide it's time to save face, they'll have something to save face with. >> eleanor? >> al gore was in washington a year ago, he spoke at brookings and attended a reunion of his 1988 presidential campaign. the first time he ran, he'd just turned 40 years old. he lost a lot of weight, is in fighting trim, he said he's changed his diet. and there's buzz among

democrats. if hillary doesn't run, al gore, maybe? >> the al gore rumors are back. there it is. eleanor clift has just dropped a bombshell. al gore, '16. there we go. it's not that implausible. >> i laughed at first, but not anymore. >> he's definitely qualified. i want to thank ann lewis, former white house communications director for bill clinton, former republican tom davis, syndicate columnist, thanks for getting up. thank you at home for getting up as well. we'll be back here next saturday morning at 8:00 a.m., sunday as well, when our guests will include former "new york times" columnist, bob herbert, and stick around now for a special melissa harris-perry from the new york public library. hope to see you next week here on "up." have a great day. [ bird chirping ]

♪ ♪ ♪ [ male announcer ] build anything with the new toyota tundra. toyota. let's go places. big plans. so when i found out medicare doesn't pay all my medical expenses, i looked at my options. then i got a medicare supplement insurance plan. [ male announcer ] if you're eligible for medicare, you may know it only covers about 80%

of your part b medical expenses. the rest is up to you. call now and find out about an aarp medicare supplement insurance plan, insured by unitedhealthcare insurance company. like all standardized medicare supplement insurance plans, it helps pick up some of what medicare doesn't pay. and could save you in out-of-pocket medical costs. to me, relationships matter. i've been with my doctor for 12 years. now i know i'll be able to stick with him. [ male announcer ] with these types of plans, you'll be able to visit any doctor or hospital that accepts medicare patients. plus, there are no networks, and virtually no referrals needed. so don't wait. call now and request this free decision guide to help you better understand medicare... and which aarp medicare supplement plan might be best for you. there's a wide range to choose from. we love to travel -- and there's so much more to see. so we found a plan that can travel with us.

anywhere in the country. [ male announcer ] join the millions of people who have already enrolled in the only medicare supplement insurance plans endorsed by aarp, an organization serving the needs of people 50 and over for generations. remember, all medicare supplement insurance plans help cover what medicare doesn't pay. and could save you in out-of-pocket medical costs. call now to request your free decision guide. and learn more about the kinds of plans that will be here for you now -- and down the road. i have a lifetime of experience. so i know how important that is.